Curse

Thanas · Aug 15, 2005, 10:26 PM // 22:26

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Originally Posted by White Designs

Thanas, I...just don't understand you. Do the math? I've said over and over again its about choice. Anytime you lack a choice, such as whether or not to take a Necro, you have less options, its not hard to understand.

And not getting a group..that's just BS. I don't take Necros for Putrid only. I'm not dumb enough to run a group where one member of my team is only using one skill. I am frustrated though that every group I make has to use the particular uses of a Necro, (which I still maintain are limited.)

And everyone in this topic has agreed most teams take a Necro. Besides monks, you are the most commonly needed class. And you're blaming me for some reason?

Yeah do the math. I think you'll find not having a necro class at all, which is something you effectively promote through your poor attitutde decreases the possible number of team combinations. You have covered the topic combinations and permutations in maths haven't you?

You seem to be contridicting yourself. Make up your mind. Ooh I hate necros all they're good for is putrid. Oh I'm not that stupid, I don't just take them for putrid. Errrm what are you trying to say??? I am confused!!!!

We are not the most commonly needed class. I have to actually beg people to take me along. Also there is never more than one necro per team. This is unfair!!! The reason for this is that people believe necros are only good for one role. This is something you promote and propogate through these poorly thought out posts. I still maintain you have no idea what the necro class is capable of. You have limited experience and thus should in no way disciminate against this class.

arredondo · Aug 15, 2005, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Actually, I'm not so much defending Necros as I am defending any skill 'X' from being nerfed when clear and competent counters readily exist.

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The point isn't that other professions have no way to stop Putrid Explosion chains- it's that that one skill A) Eliminates corpses from all other necros B) Doesn't require skill to use, either in planning or execution, and C) Is a powerful effect that can and does singlehandedly change the outcome of matches.

In my list of counters to a Putrid spamming Necro, how does that not defeat each of these issues? How can he spam if you stop or slow him to steal the corpse yourself (or your teammate)? Finally, why is it hard to see that it changes the match dramatically only if you don't come to the table with the ability to stop a predictable situation?

As a Mesmer primary, if I want a corpse for my own use (or for a teammate if I have another secondary), just about everything I listed can be the starting point of allowing just that. Guilt is used to stop one enemy Necro from instant Putrid spam so you can use Putrid for your own damaging reasons. How can that be bad? Your 'B' has a problem with unstrategic spamming of it... well here you go, the spamming is nerfed. It doesn't need nano-second timing.... put it on him within 2-10 seconds of a player dying. With Fast Cast stats, what's so hard about that?

Archane Conundrum and Migraine have a use, which is the only point being made. If someone wants to use the elite version, that's their issue.... I'm listing possible counters to one situation, not an entire Tombs campaign. Yes, NR extends the casting time, but I don't have to time this perfectly (cast before someone dies as it lasts awhile), and as a Mesmer, I can use Fast Cast points that will allow me to cast the hex comfortably close to it's normal 2-second cast time (even 2.8 seconds is reasonable). Again, this is only used if indeed Putrid is soooo terrible a skill that it needs to be addressed.

Fast Cast and AC or Migraine can be used for all kinds of caster control situations, and they especially work well here. All you need do when they cast under it is interrupt PE with a "Power" stopper (Leak, Drain, Spike, Leech Sig, CoF, whatever), and you've helped your team Necro (or your secondary) use any Death skill they choose. PE now has a 2-second cast time, interrupted, maybe aftercast (not sure after interrupts), and another 2-second cast time. That is definitely over three seconds taken away from them, and they remain at 2-second casting for as long as your hex holds out. Cast whatever Death skill you want.

Alternatively, stack both hexes and forget the interrupt - your Necro can cast three second Death spells while theirs is stuck at 4-12 second casts. You do have options. Don't have a Death Necro or secondary on your team? Then you've accepted that as an area you are weak to dealing with. Scatter to safety when the corpses explode or brace yourself for the damage. You can't expect to have everything wrapped up neatly within in three classes.

As for Black Out, why describe all that as a way of implying the infinite difficulty one may have in touching a Necro? If people are at 50% health or so at the altar, that's my cue as a Black Out hero to find me a Necro. Sometimes I may not get to him, but that's part of the game - sometimes a Warrior can't get to the target for his punishing power swing; cie la vie. Nothing is scripted for perfection.

And if I'm successful? The necro is out of spam fuel for up to seven seconds, and my Necro neighbor can chain his own Putrid explosions (or get off TWO three-second Death spells) with no resistance at all - unless the OTHER team is also prepared for him. I can echo it for chaining a 14 second Black Out on him (plenty of time for my team to beat it out of him if we choose), or I can be ready with Diversion, when he comes out of it ready to Putrify spam again.

Yes, you are out for five seconds yourself, but what have you done for the cost of five seconds? You've stopped him from chaining Putrid on your team at a cost of 100+ damage a pop! Sounds fair to me, just make sure the corpse is gone when he wakes up (rez your teammate maybe?)... it's all part of the game

Diversion is great for anti-spam... people want nerfs but there are solutions present. That's all I'm addressing. If the level of threat is that my team can handle one Putrid blast (or we scatter from it) but more is too much, Diversion is there as an answer as you have nerfed Putrid for up to a full minute. If I want more control, there are the answers above.

Why not use a spam-bot for Putrid myself you ask? No need. I can use one of these skills listed and change a 50/50 chance that I can get to the corpse first under your solution, to a 90/10 chance or more if the other team doesn't stop my counter and subsequent corpse use.

I'll even add another one for free: Power Block. This is useful in many non-Necro ways, but once a Necro is ready to take advantage of a dying victim on the altar, I am ready to take advantage of HIM as part of my team's strategy in this portion of the game. One second spells are a cinch to interrupt when you know one is coming. This takes out his entire Death line for 15 seconds, and I don't need to be point blank like Black Out. If someone says after all this that there's no stopping Putrid mania from defeating their team, I don't know what to say.

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Originally Posted by Me again
In the current situation where Putrid exists, the possibility for someone else to discover a different creative use for corpses is gone.

Incorrect. We have 64 skills to bring in among us. A potential Putrid problem is controlled with one or two of slots, along with the option of our team's choice of corpse magic - ANY corpse magic. And all the skills I brought up can be used outside of Putrid control, so my slots aren't wasted if my team is solidly built.

As for the other Death spells, all I see is that Putrid (or Necrotic Transversal) is being maximized in it's ideal situation. It's average in the rest of the battles. Other Death spells have varying levels of use in their own scenarios... why expect everything to be equally useful in all situations?

If people are allowing this single skill to defeat them everytime in HoH (and it sounds like there are those that win just fine without PE), at least TRY to go in and control it. Throw up Well of Profane while you're at it if that fits into your team's plans, which is easily done using the tactics discussed here. Even a 4xRanger/2xMonk/2xWarrior can at least carry Diversion for a mild 30-40 second reprieve. Anything more and the solution is clear... diversify your skill set a tiny bit by bringing in a more appropriate clas/sub-class.

clonmac · Aug 15, 2005, 10:56 PM // 22:56

People who say Putrid is the only good skill that necros have obviously have only read about their skills on a webpage. I have unlocked ALL the necro skills except for 1! ...stupid Feast of Corruption. All I ever use is a necro, you will never see me with a character with out the letter 'N' somewhere in there class.

Hands down, Necros are the most versatile class in the game and can adjust to more situations than any other class. I get so tired of defending Necros to ignorant statements. Who says you have to have a necro with skills that effect corpses. They are such a good support character it is crazy. Throw a necro in your group who specializes in blood. Then have them carry Blood Ritual and Blood is Power. Then after you win HoH, get ready to have your Guild say thanx for never having their energy drop to 0. People who haven't ever seen Blood is Power used, don't realize how much your energy goes up with 10 Bips of energy.

Or throw them in there for extreme degen spells, or condition spreading using tainted flesh. They can adapt so well. If a team has lots of condition removal, then switch over to your hex degen spells midway through the battle. This will keep the other team on their toes.

Or put a necro on your team for some heavy armor ingoring damage using blood magic. Or put them on a team to hex the crap out of the enemy. Or use enchantments like Order of Vampire in a Warrior heavy group and watch three warriors on your team do hundreds of damage a second, each one using flurry. It also make the job of your monks easy because they will all be healing themselves.

Ugh, It makes me sick when people say Necros suck, because they obviously haven't used enough of their skills in combination with one another. They just use them as a secondary class and try a few of their skills and say that they suck.

My Guild usualy carries two necros in a group for support reasons. Not for "I need Putrid Explosion!!"

Open your minds up a little...

Zeru · Aug 15, 2005, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Necros are the most restricted organized pvp class in the game period. I swear we've covered this so many times: Necros have a couple of very powerful and useful things, but they are extremely limited in what they can do well compared to others. BiP, Orders, Offering, Putrid, Rend, Shadow of Fear, and Enfeebling blood are some examples of what is good. There are others, but far less than any other class. Without putrid the need for a primary necro is very rare (bip or orders generally), and it's not like you need more than a couple select skills for a secondary though it is quite a useful secondary simply because of rend.

arredondo> I don't think you and scaph are discussing the same thing.

White Designs · Aug 15, 2005, 11:20 PM // 23:20

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Yeah do the math. I think you'll find not having a necro class at all, which is something you effectively promote through your poor attitutde decreases the possible number of team combinations. You have covered the topic combinations and permutations in maths haven't you?

You...can't...read. I didn't say not have it exist. I just said not making it mandatory. You continually skip the lines where I say its an issue of being able to choose.

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You seem to be contridicting yourself. Make up your mind. Ooh I hate necros all they're good for is putrid. Oh I'm not that stupid, I don't just take them for putrid. Errrm what are you trying to say??? I am confused!!!!

When I say the Necro sucks for everything besides Putrid, I specifically mean the primary necro, and thus soul reaping. I've already made posts explaining some other good Necromancer skills, but all of them (with the exception of bip/oov/oop, which are NR unfriendly) work just as well, or better on a secondary necro, most notably a Me/N. What I mean is that I take the Necro in order to have putrid on my team, a skill too valuable to neglect, but I don't simply ignore the other 7 slots, I still try to make the Necromancer have some other useful skills.

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We are not the most commonly needed class. I have to actually beg people to take me along. Also there is never more than one necro per team. This is unfair!!! The reason for this is that people believe necros are only good for one role. This is something you promote and propogate through these poorly thought out posts. I still maintain you have no idea what the necro class is capable of. You have limited experience and thus should in no way disciminate against this class.

There is a rather large reason why its 1 necro per team...and if you have to beg people to take you along, then what does that say about your skill? And I don't really care what you maintain, since I mentioned repeatedly what I thought a Necro is good for. If I'm wrong, then tell me what I'm missing.

Once again, I am stressing that my opinion is from a team perspective, and I have trusted players I know play Necro all the time. They are usually quite effective, because I design teams that function well using what a Necro has to offer. But the total number of teams I can reasonably run is limited since I can only build teams which can put the Necro's skills to good use, since Putrid is a must always.

Scaphism · Aug 15, 2005, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Arredondo,
I didn't mean to suggest that you were a "necro sympathizer" who blithely supports any argument favoring necromancers. That thought was directed at others in the thread who have shown themselves to be particularly biased, and it slipped into the middle of my thoughtstream as I was replying to you.

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Guilt is used to stop one enemy Necro from instant Putrid spam so you can use Putrid for your own damaging reasons. How can that be bad? Your 'B' has a problem with unstrategic spamming of it... well here you go, the spamming is nerfed. It doesn't need nano-second timing.... put it on him within 2-10 seconds of a player dying. With Fast Cast stats, what's so hard about that?

I don't think people understand how guilt works. You cast a spell, any spell, and it gets stopped by guilt. Your guilt spell goes into recharge. Their spell does not. They lose ~10 energy and you gain ~10 energy. However, they're ready to cast Putrid Explosion immediately after guilt triggers. You haven't stopped them from casting at all, you just gave them a hiccup in their mashing, UNLESS you have nanosecond timing and can make guilt land the instant before someone dies (and in a match with 16 enemies and 8 allied team bars, + pets and 3 ghostly heroes it is *difficult* to predict when a corpse is going to appear, even if your timing is impeccable). If you can predict and time your guilt with that much precision, you will have the edge in casting Putrid before them.
This leads me to 2 points:
A) It shouldn't be that hard to turn it from a game of button mashing into a game of skill, especially when the skill is completely one-sided (you're doing all the work)
B) Aren't you still casting Putrid Explosion?

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Archane Conundrum and Migraine have a use, which is the only point being made. If someone wants to use the elite version, that's their issue.... I'm listing possible counters to one situation, not an entire Tombs campaign. Yes, NR extends the casting time, but I don't have to time this perfectly (cast before someone dies as it lasts awhile),

That leads me to points C and D.
C) Your resources vs their resources: They're devoting one guy with soul reaping + putrid to swiping corpses. You are devoting yourself to *stopping him*. You are not gaining an advantage by stopping him, you're merely keeping things in a stalemate. That's a poor play to make. If all you want to do is blow the corpse up yourself, that agrees with the idea that Putrid is a serious point of contention in Tombs, worthy of a balance review.
D) Again, battle of resources. It's going to take time and effort (and attention) for your character to shut down a necromancer (or turbo controller) from smashing the putrid button. Twice as long under Nature's Renewal. If his entire goal is to get that spell off quickly, he will either: Bring Hex breaker, or shout for hex removal. All good teams have it. If it's an important hex, expect it to be gone in 2-3 seconds (reaction times + cast times). Unless, of course, you have impeccable timing and you can get it to land within 2 seconds of the body hitting the ground, in which case that takes us back to the problem with using Guilt.

Stacking both Migraine and Arcane Conundrum is an even worse play that using one alone. See the battle of resources point again for clarification. In addition, you've given up your 25% of your skill bar, including your elite, for a redundant effect.
Again, wouldn't you be better off spamming putrid yourself? (*hits nail with hammer one more time*)

I think I covered Blackout with the other points.
If you can pull if off, kudos, you've given yourself a window of opportunity. What is your team going to do with it?

Diversion cuts exactly to the point we're trying to make here, and I'm really glad you brought it up again.
If the problem is people chain-casting Putrid Explosion, and Diversion solves that (which it does, I LOVE Diversion), then does that make Putrid Explosion any less powerful for the existence of a general counter? If you think spamming Putrid Explosion is problem worthy of being Diverted, then what is the objection to either giving the spell a small recharge, or giving a small penalty to spamming it when there are no corpses around?

Does the existence of Diversion make Putrid a worse spell than Necrotic Traversal, Well X, Soul Feast, Animate X, and any other corpse spells I've missed? No. It's power level is higher than the others. Normally, that would be okay- as Blackace and others have been pointing out in another thread, some spells must be more powerful than others. However, when that powerful of an effect is so simple to use, it screams for attention. In an environment where your choices are "bring X, or bring its counter, or expect to lose to X" you lose out on choices. And make no mistake, despite your many good points, Wells, Animate spells, and even teams lose to Putrid Explosion. The fact that you can affect the person casting Putrid does nothing to change it's inherent power relative to the other corpse exploitation spells.

I hope I'm being clear. A lot of these issues have been old hat for a while now, so if something I think is obvious isn't clear, ask about it.

ICURADik · Aug 15, 2005, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Im not even going to try and read every post in this thread. Just add in a couple really hard counters to Putrid.

I don't know if anyone has heard of Esoteric Warriors(EuropeanGuild), but I believe they use Glyph of Sacrifice with Well of Profane and sacrifice one of their chars. Makes taking an altar a joke.

They also use Necrotic Traversal if they are defending a cap.

MuKen · Aug 16, 2005, 12:10 AM // 00:10

Dunno if this has been posted already, but I think a great way to balance the corpse skills (along with adding a new dimension to the strategy) would be to have a flag that says some skills exploit the corpse for everyone, and some just exploit it for your own team.

Thus you can putrid all you want, but the other team can still use the corpses for wells if they want to, and maybe the minion skills which are much less used could be given the added advantage of removing the usability of the corpse for all the opponents as well.

Skyro · Aug 16, 2005, 01:45 AM // 01:45

This thread is getting to unwieldly so I'll just sum up some points/opinion:

-We're not playing a game or rock-paper-scissors. It's not putrid>all other corpse exploitation skills. We're playing the game in real-time. And putrid was an evolution of the game as a means of corpse denial, and I have no problem with that.

-I agree that trying to stop putrid is more trouble than it's worth, and just having a necro with putrid yourself is the easiest solution. Diversion however, is very good at stopping putrid chains on the altar.

-I don't agree that the skill is overpowered. It is just very effective in certain situations. But isn't that what skills are supposed to do? Be effective at times and not at others. I remember when hill holding teams started becoming popular and you couldn't even put a dent in their defense and no corpses fell. Putrid was useless in this case.

-Nerfing putrid would be very short-sighted. Nerfing a skill has a *global* effect, where its effect on the hill is *localized.* I've said it before and I'll said it again, the parameters set by tombs makes putrid seem too good. By knowing ahead of time, every time, that you're always going to be facing the exact same situation, a clumped up mass of people on the hill, forces them to take putrid. It's not the only skill however, healing seed is in the very same category. If you really wanted to fix the versatility aspect I believe it'd be much better to work on changing the mechanics of corpse exploitation.

-In a controlled environment where people just spam the putrid button, yes that takes no skill. To fit putriding in your build so you don't just stand there like an idiot doing nothing until a corpse falls takes energy management, timing, battlefield sense, and targetting (you did know you can somewhat control which corpses to explode if there are multiple corpses on the field right? Actually probably not). If a necro simply stands there and just spams the putrid button he'd probably get off more putrids than I would, but he'd certainly be adding much less to his team's overall success as well (and probably be dead as well).

-And it is my opinion, based on the body of work presented, that the original topic poster simply wants to nerf putrid because he does not think much of the class and wants to not take it in his team builds. That's it. It's not about versatility, not about balance, not that it takes no skill.

-I don't know who or who isn't a member of IQ or whatever guild because I don't really care. I'm just here to discuss a topic. But I'm a member of kf if you want to know my 'credentials'.

arredondo · Aug 16, 2005, 05:02 AM // 05:02

The OP says the skill needs a nerf. Me and others show that if it is the primary reason you can't win HoH, there are answers. With 2/64 skill slots, problem is solved. How you make use of the soluitions is up to the needs of your team, but my only point was to say that if you want to stop it from beating you, simply stop it. There are so many ways (Putrid yourself, Necrotic Transversal, Mesmer skills, Ele glyphs, etc.) that this topic really can't be debated anymore.

However if the new topic is instead the balance or fairness of having to use these options to stop Putrid, that's a different issue. I think we all can agree it's POSSIBLE to do something about it (and many options at that), it's just if you think you should based on the properties of the move.

You guys debate that. I don't care, honestly, about the presence of any skill, but that's all opinions. The facts are that it is not some unstoppable entity that alone should keep a prepared team from winning.

On Guilt:

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I don't think people understand how guilt works. You cast a spell, any spell, and it gets stopped by guilt. Your guilt spell goes into recharge. Their spell does not. They lose ~10 energy and you gain ~10 energy. However, they're ready to cast Putrid Explosion immediately after guilt triggers. You haven't stopped them from casting at all, you just gave them a hiccup in their mashing, UNLESS you have nanosecond timing and can make guilt land the instant before someone dies (and in a match with 16 enemies and 8 allied team bars, + pets and 3 ghostly heroes it is *difficult* to predict when a corpse is going to appear, even if your timing is impeccable). If you can predict and time your guilt with that much precision, you will have the edge in casting Putrid before them.

Guilt can last up to 11 seconds. I do not have to wait until the last 'nanosecond' to cast it on a Necro when I sense bodies will be falling soon. With Fast Cast points, I can lay it on him in 1 second (no NR) or as fast as two seconds with NR depending on the Fast Cast points I invest in.

Yes, someone can notice it instantly and remove it through all the chaos, and I or my teammate can possibly Cry of Frustration the 2 second hex removal attempt. And they can interrupt THAT with Choking Gas. We can always list counters to counters... your point of adding it here only adds to my point: keep outwitting the competition until you are able to win. Realistically though, I doubt my Guilt will be removed every single time. If so, I switch to a new tactic (BO or Power Block).

I am NOT describing how I would exactly approach it with these stats... just establishing what is possible. As for what is NECESSARY, that's up to me and my team to determine based on how much we want to control this skill while doing all the other things we want. Guilt (like Diversion, AC, Migraine, Power Block) are not ONLY for this Necro necessarily. That's why total campaign planning is important in deciding what fits best with our overall team build.

In any case, I think you may not fully understand what happens with Guilt (in this scenario) as well. These hex interrupts activate just before the skill is cast. Almost like a perfectly timed Power Leak. So the Necro who's spamming through my Guilt gets interrupted not at .01, but at .99 of the one second cast. Like I said above, I'm not sure of an aftercast effect (.75), but if there isn't he must take another second to cast Putrid... that's two seconds.

I offered this option as a way of freeing up a corpse for your own Putrid needs or your teammate). The only point being made is what's POSSIBLE based on your teeam's priorities. If you can live with not almost guaranteeing your team gets first crack at a corpse, then obviously you don't need this - but it is available if you do. the same is true for all the other solutions, including the versatile Power Block, which you didn't acknowledge would work great for Putrid along with many other uses.... better than Diversion even. Instead people would likely complain about skills they don't want to use. Arena.net can't win.

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A) It shouldn't be that hard to turn it from a game of button mashing into a game of skill, especially when the skill is completely one-sided (you're doing all the work)

It is skill when I use one of at least ten options listed in this thread. How many more do we need? If the spammer mashes out Lightning chains and I easily live by being prepared, that's his problem, not mine. If a Fragility-Virulence Mesmer keeps throwing his hexes at my Hex Breaker stance in arenas, that's his problem, not mine. Mashers, n00bs, scrubs aren't a problem or a concern if you stop them. he tried strategy X, you stopped it, now he's potentially worthless (unless he has more, which many Necros will) - pat yourself on the back.

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B) Aren't you still casting Putrid Explosion?

For Guilt, very possible, but by CHOICE only. I can choose other solutions before the match; it's up to me and my team. There's no one-size-fits-all answer. I'm simply showing that if YOUR team wants to get the Putrid out first (because it works really well in this particular scenario), Guilt puts the ball in your court. Try the other eight or nine ideas if you want a different outcome. If it doesn't involve YOU making use of the corpse somehow even if only rezzing a teammate), then accept that this will be a weakness for your team. You can't stop everything by sticking with the tried and true. You have to be vulnerable to something, but it's a CHOICE, not an impossible situation.

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Quote:
Archane Conundrum and Migraine have a use, which is the only point being made. If someone wants to use the elite version, that's their issue.... I'm listing possible counters to one situation, not an entire Tombs campaign. Yes, NR extends the casting time, but I don't have to time this perfectly (cast before someone dies as it lasts awhile),
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That leads me to points C and D.
C) Your resources vs their resources: They're devoting one guy with soul reaping + putrid to swiping corpses. You are devoting yourself to *stopping him*. You are not gaining an advantage by stopping him, you're merely keeping things in a stalemate. That's a poor play to make. If all you want to do is blow the corpse up yourself, that agrees with the idea that Putrid is a serious point of contention in Tombs, worthy of a balance review.

D) Again, battle of resources. It's going to take time and effort (and attention) for your character to shut down a necromancer (or turbo controller) from smashing the putrid button. Twice as long under Nature's Renewal. If his entire goal is to get that spell off quickly, he will either: Bring Hex breaker, or shout for hex removal. All good teams have it. If it's an important hex, expect it to be gone in 2-3 seconds (reaction times + cast times). Unless, of course, you have impeccable timing and you can get it to land within 2 seconds of the body hitting the ground, in which case that takes us back to the problem with using Guilt.

For 'C', you are putting in exactly the amount of resources that you and your team feel they need to solve a problem! In planning for an 8-man build, go over all the potential threats you may face and how you plan to deal with them. You can not stop everything. If you place Putrid Explosion high on your list, then you need to invest in the strategy, skills, teammate and tactics to handle it. Only put in the amount of effort YOU feel you need.

If you want to get a Putrid cast advantage, bring a slow-cast hex or Guilt. If you want to simply stop multiple spams, bring Diversion. If you have a great new strat for Minions or a Well (or simply want to rez a teammate), Black him Out for your Necro to roam free, or go with an Ele glyph. If you don't want to mess with corpses yourself, or you simply want to gimp the Necro from using them, there's Power Block. Those two also get around hex casting and Hex Breaker. Or try early, concentrated energy denial (it DOES cost 10E). Or simply scatter when the explosion is near. You do as much or as little as you think you need. For Skyro, he and his team won't lose too much sleep over it. As long as that works and they squeeze out wins, then how do we complain about it? If a solution works, it works. No one can't say solutions aren't there. Putrid is strongest in this single scenario... since I have options to control it exactly how I want to when playing smart, I wouldn't advocate changing a thing.

Aug 16, 2005, 06:07 AM // 06:07

I really dont think you know what a counter is.

arredondo · Aug 16, 2005, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Oh please. Do these tactics stop the offending PE? Yes. If no one wants to bring them, or do any other idea they can think of, then they take their chances - just like vs. any other technique in the game you refuse to take control of. Don't blame the system or Arena.net for one issue in one aspect of the game that others here seem to be dealing with just fine. Multiple solutions exist. Any Death spell can be used. Mashers can be gimped. There is no need for adjustments.

Aug 16, 2005, 07:30 AM // 07:30

I really dont think you know what a counter is.

manveruppd · Aug 16, 2005, 08:42 AM // 08:42

I have to say I liked the idea of a Fast Casting Curses Me/N... I think I'll try it some day

cookiehoarder · Aug 16, 2005, 11:13 AM // 11:13

Did he say diversion? Or did he skip it. It works for me, works agianst smiters as well.

White Designs · Aug 16, 2005, 01:52 PM // 13:52

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As long as that works and they squeeze out wins, then how do we complain about it? If a solution works, it works. No one can't say solutions aren't there. Putrid is strongest in this single scenario... since I have options to control it exactly how I want to when playing smart, I wouldn't advocate changing a thing.

Whoa, I hope you don't mean that. The 'solution' right now is the run a team-tailored for Nature's Renewal and have a putrid everytime. That sure works, yet its obvious that it needs changing.

The best counter to putrid is putrid, very simple. If you do your counters perfectly, at best you achieve a stalemate. If you don't take Putrid yourself, you achieve nothing, and realistically are disadvantaged.

And just for the record, I'll say it once more, I don't like Necros. Who cares? Does everyone like every class, no. I don't want to bring Necros on my team, but it is a balance/versatility issue. One of the main reason I don't play Necro is because it takes less skill than other classes to mash Putrid. When every team needs a class because of one skill, that's inbalanced. And yeah, I wish I had the option of ignoring it, just like I have the option of ignoring a Warrior, Mesmer, Ranger, etc. right now. Options lead to versatility.

manveruppd · Aug 16, 2005, 05:49 PM // 17:49

It does take no skill to justmash putrid, but IMO Necros are the second most challenging class to play effectively after mesmers (aside from Putrid), so that really wasn't a fair comment!

Kaylee Ann · Aug 16, 2005, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Mesmer is first, Warrior actually comes in second....

Oh, and I wouldn't use the word challenging either. They are the classes most people just flat out don't know how to play at all.....

The Man · Aug 16, 2005, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Its so funny to hear people biitching about Putrid Explosion needing a nerf, because of its usefulness in Tombs.

So... because a single skill in a certain situation is extremely useful and powerful, it needs to be nerfed across the board. In both PvE and PvP play, regardless of map or area...

I seem to remember that as people have realized the usefulness and power of certain skills, the "necessary" builds have changed to match. Rangers used to be crap, now they're all the rage, and ele spikers are beginning to phase out, when they used to be king of the hill.

What's happening is refinement. People play around with skills, find something that works great, and then run with it. Is it the skills' fault? No. Its the player on the end of the computer who is using said skill in a way that seems unfair. Does it seem right to be able to spam a bazillion spirits, using them as a defensive line, or as "solid" enemies even?

Its also very amusing that this skill is being whined about, especially considering the nerf hell that the Necromancer in D2 went through with CE. Same exact thing, people used a skill to great situational effectiveness, people who sucked complained, skill was nerfed terribly.

Maybe you should adapt. Use a Mesmer with 15 Fast Cast, and interrupt everyone. Or use more than one Mesmer? OMFG LOL NOOB BBQ WTF is the answer I'd expect. Perish the thought of coming up with a counter strategy and moving onto the next phase of whichever class acheives dominance, lets nerf, nerf, nerf. Pathetic.

I will answer this moronic statement with a series of quotes from this forum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Every skill has counters. That does not mean that every skill is inherently balanced.

Peace,
-CxE

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

This skill sucks outside of altar maps but that's not the point anyway.

it's a) skilless. Mashing or turbo controller.
b) Screws other corpse spells

That's this thread in a nutshell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Man

The reason a nerf is requested has NOTHING to do with the singular effect of putrid. It has to do with the fact that it negates all other corpse exploitation skills. You are arguing an irrelivant point. I will blame this misconception on the fact that you are still learning english (or at least I hope that's the reason because I've already made a similar post).

Kaleban · Aug 16, 2005, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Man

I will answer this moronic statement with a series of quotes from this forum.

Nice. Your whole response is regurgitation of others' thoughts. My point was that when the "average" player complains because he can't figure out how to overcome a situation, it starts a snowball effect with every other average player (vast majority) jumping on the bandwagon, until, to preserve the player base, the sought after change is done.

And most of the people calling for a nerf are using extremely fallacious logic. Nerf a skill globally because its effect in one area is too powerful? How about some of the Ranger spirits, Victory is Mine on a warrior condition build, etc.?

And I also read a few people saying that PE renders all other corpse skills useless. BS. The other corpse skills are just as useful as before, however, their utility in this situation is limited. You can say the same thing about Meteor Storm being used on a hill holding team. OMGWTF, we get knocked down and much damage, NERF! But in any other map, where people are constantly on the move and not clustered, this skill is pointless.

What happens if a Necro, through either Fast Cast or having a Mesmer Blackout the opposing Necro, gets off a few high level Animate Bone X skills? Your team's number just increased, and now you have a decided advantage!

Since this game is tactical real-time combat, you have to look at it from that perspective. Not every skill need have an exact counter from some other class. But skills can be negated through skills. Take Meteor Storm again. What happens when you encounter a "healing ball" group which constantly use Heal Area and other close range group healing spells, requiring the build to stay in close proximity? Use Meteor Storm, knock them down, and keep doing it.

And to say a Necro has nothing else to do but mash PE is stupid. He's got seven other skills, and at LEAST one other attribute line. Using Curses, or something from a secondary line allows the Necro to still be what he is best at, a support character. And corpse exploitation/suppression is a support role, so of course the Necro should excel at that.

All of you who call for a nerf are childish, short sighted, and need to think more outside of the box when it comes to team builds, tactics and skill layouts.